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	<title>Comments for two-pot screamer dot com</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 21:38:18 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on The myth of LISP superiority by Duncan Bayne</title>
		<link>http://www.twopotscreamer.com/lisp-superiority-myth/#comment-138552</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan Bayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 21:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twopotscreamer.com/?p=846#comment-138552</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The languages you cite as having thrived in place of Lisp worked, that is true.  However, you&#039;re dropping context: for the most part they worked on hardware that was not capable of running Lisp in a reasonable fashion.  

My own programming evolution was Locomotive BASIC -&gt; Z80 -&gt; Pascal -&gt; C -&gt; C# -&gt; Ruby / Coffeescript -&gt; Lisp. Only towards the end of that evolution have I been using machines capable of running practical Lisp implementations; the machine I learned to program on had 42kB free RAM!

Also, note that as the hardware has progressed, more and more features that were once solely the domain of Lisp have been assimilated into &#039;mainstream&#039; languages.

I&#039;d argue that it was the triumph of microcomputers that killed Lisp as a mainstream language; when you&#039;re dealing with an 8 bit CPU and many orders of magnitude less memory and storage than a cheap candybar phone, you&#039;re not going to be able to run Emacs and Common Lisp ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The languages you cite as having thrived in place of Lisp worked, that is true.  However, you&#8217;re dropping context: for the most part they worked on hardware that was not capable of running Lisp in a reasonable fashion.  </p>
<p>My own programming evolution was Locomotive BASIC -&gt; Z80 -&gt; Pascal -&gt; C -&gt; C# -&gt; Ruby / Coffeescript -&gt; Lisp. Only towards the end of that evolution have I been using machines capable of running practical Lisp implementations; the machine I learned to program on had 42kB free RAM!</p>
<p>Also, note that as the hardware has progressed, more and more features that were once solely the domain of Lisp have been assimilated into &#8216;mainstream&#8217; languages.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d argue that it was the triumph of microcomputers that killed Lisp as a mainstream language; when you&#8217;re dealing with an 8 bit CPU and many orders of magnitude less memory and storage than a cheap candybar phone, you&#8217;re not going to be able to run Emacs and Common Lisp ;)</p>
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		<title>Comment on The myth of LISP superiority by Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.twopotscreamer.com/lisp-superiority-myth/#comment-89573</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twopotscreamer.com/?p=846#comment-89573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Another one who doesn&#039;t understand Lisp.  Perhaps this is why Lisp never became popular.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another one who doesn&#8217;t understand Lisp.  Perhaps this is why Lisp never became popular.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The myth of LISP superiority by Gurpreet Saini</title>
		<link>http://www.twopotscreamer.com/lisp-superiority-myth/#comment-88811</link>
		<dc:creator>Gurpreet Saini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Feb 2012 07:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twopotscreamer.com/?p=846#comment-88811</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dead in terms of popularity. Most certainly yes. But for some reason, a reason worth discovering IMHO, lisps have a cult like following for a subset of hackers doing *ahem* real work (go to franz&#039;s website if you don&#039;t believe me). So its a handful of people deeply empowered by this reprogrammable programming language which, like many other languages like Tcl, Rebol, Oz, keep producing anecdotes of programmers gaining independence from the rat race (my hope) and really contributing to the industry - Rich Hickey being the most prominent recent example. The question you have to ask yourself is that are you afraid of finding out the truth behind the the passion that this language invokes. Because as far as I am concerned the passion behind blub programming languages like C++,C#, and Java is mostly professionally programmers wanting to stay relevant. Understandable, but ultimately self defeating.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dead in terms of popularity. Most certainly yes. But for some reason, a reason worth discovering IMHO, lisps have a cult like following for a subset of hackers doing *ahem* real work (go to franz&#8217;s website if you don&#8217;t believe me). So its a handful of people deeply empowered by this reprogrammable programming language which, like many other languages like Tcl, Rebol, Oz, keep producing anecdotes of programmers gaining independence from the rat race (my hope) and really contributing to the industry &#8211; Rich Hickey being the most prominent recent example. The question you have to ask yourself is that are you afraid of finding out the truth behind the the passion that this language invokes. Because as far as I am concerned the passion behind blub programming languages like C++,C#, and Java is mostly professionally programmers wanting to stay relevant. Understandable, but ultimately self defeating.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The myth of LISP superiority by srean</title>
		<link>http://www.twopotscreamer.com/lisp-superiority-myth/#comment-31761</link>
		<dc:creator>srean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twopotscreamer.com/?p=846#comment-31761</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The article reminded me of Dylan. Not the language but the singer.

You walk into the room, with your pencil in your hand,
.....
Because something is happening here
But you don&#039;t know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones ?&quot;

Move on folks, nothing to see here. To the author, well, everybody uses powerpoint that doesnt mean its any good.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The article reminded me of Dylan. Not the language but the singer.</p>
<p>You walk into the room, with your pencil in your hand,<br />
&#8230;..<br />
Because something is happening here<br />
But you don&#8217;t know what it is<br />
Do you, Mister Jones ?&#8221;</p>
<p>Move on folks, nothing to see here. To the author, well, everybody uses powerpoint that doesnt mean its any good.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The perils of cheap Virtual Hosting by Aubrey Roberts</title>
		<link>http://www.twopotscreamer.com/the-perils-of-cheap-virtual-hosting/#comment-27550</link>
		<dc:creator>Aubrey Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 04:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=32#comment-27550</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is also easy to backup and transfer all your websites from one server to another server if you have cPanel installed:*&#039;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is also easy to backup and transfer all your websites from one server to another server if you have cPanel installed:*&#8217;</p>
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		<title>Comment on The myth of LISP superiority by Mario</title>
		<link>http://www.twopotscreamer.com/lisp-superiority-myth/#comment-21052</link>
		<dc:creator>Mario</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twopotscreamer.com/?p=846#comment-21052</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your document is pointless, you criticize lisp but lisp is not a programming language but a set of programming languaje.
Please read and know well some thing before criticize it. Criticize some thing than you even confuse it name is silly.
I can&#039;t comment more because i do not know what dialect of lisp are you talking about please specify.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your document is pointless, you criticize lisp but lisp is not a programming language but a set of programming languaje.<br />
Please read and know well some thing before criticize it. Criticize some thing than you even confuse it name is silly.<br />
I can&#8217;t comment more because i do not know what dialect of lisp are you talking about please specify.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Wedding Ring by sam</title>
		<link>http://www.twopotscreamer.com/wedding-ring/#comment-20803</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 06:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twopotscreamer.com/?p=708#comment-20803</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[tungsten ring is scratch proof .....  it can becomes your long life memorable gift... i have a black carbide tungsten ring for last two years... and you can&#039;t find even one scratch on that... i have got it with life time guarantee.. for more information you can visit 

regards
sam]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tungsten ring is scratch proof &#8230;..  it can becomes your long life memorable gift&#8230; i have a black carbide tungsten ring for last two years&#8230; and you can&#8217;t find even one scratch on that&#8230; i have got it with life time guarantee.. for more information you can visit </p>
<p>regards<br />
sam</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Comment on A Few Red Faces in the Nosebleed Section by Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.twopotscreamer.com/a-few-red-faces-in-the-nosebleed-section/#comment-19136</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=20#comment-19136</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have reliable info that the line comes from friends of the band only being able to buy the cheapest tickets at concerts for other bands. in most venues the nosebleed section is usually an elevated section right at the back where the front row there is still better then the back row.
In which case the line makes perfect sense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have reliable info that the line comes from friends of the band only being able to buy the cheapest tickets at concerts for other bands. in most venues the nosebleed section is usually an elevated section right at the back where the front row there is still better then the back row.<br />
In which case the line makes perfect sense.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The myth of LISP superiority by Michel Bagnol</title>
		<link>http://www.twopotscreamer.com/lisp-superiority-myth/#comment-18368</link>
		<dc:creator>Michel Bagnol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twopotscreamer.com/?p=846#comment-18368</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Note: In this post, I use LISP as a shorthand to &quot;Common Lisp&quot;

=== Introduction  ===
I&#039;m a software architect for real-time assembly machines, I&#039;ve been through many many languages in my career, and for my company I choose languages by popularity : because I can find some developers on the job market.


=== Chapter 1: Me and LISP ===
Yes, I choose the main stream languages for my company, but NO I do not like them more than LISP. In fact I personally prefer LISP over any other languages I&#039;ve ever used professionally, and here is why, in a single word: Homoiconicity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity

So where do I use LISP? not at work as I said, but for research projects on evolutionary algorithms. Homoiconicity is way more powerful that .NET&#039;s Reflection for instance, because it allows both self-examination and self-modification and is so natural in LISP syntax.

Also LISP, by it&#039;s syntax, allows you to extend the language in respect to the core language syntax. This allows you to extend the language in a natural manner. (please look at my programming challenge in this post).

Do I earn money with LISP : no.
Do I think LISP is the way programming languages should have evolve : yes.
Do I think LISP is like quantum mechanics : yes, because some geniuses have found a revolutionary approach but it took them 4 decades to have the rest of the world understanding it&#039;s core power.
Do I give an advantage to joob seekers who like LISP: yes, because they&#039;re way smarter in their resulting Java or C# architecture.


=== Chapter 2: Programming Challenge ===
I believe that language extension is very important, and that the resulting extension should respect the language syntax.

So, here is my challenge: Extend a mainstream language (Java, C++, C# or PHP) to have an IF working with 3 states (useful in signal processing): TRUE, UNKNOWN, FALSE
But you must respect the core language syntax so that programmer don&#039;t get confused. So with these mainstream language the 3 state IF call should look something like:
if3 (my-3-state-variable) {
 //my code executed the TRUE
 ...
} unknown {
 //my code executed the UNKNOWN
 ...
} else {
 //my code executed the FALSE
 ...
}


=== Chapter 3: Challenge solution in LISP ===
Here is a standard IF call in LISP:
(if my-boolean-variable
    &#039;(print &#039;true)
    &#039;(print &#039;false))

Here is the 3 states IF definition in LISP (the solution):
(defmacro if3 (test t-case nil-case ?-case)
  ‘(case ,test
     ((nil) ,nil-case)
     (?     ,?-case)
     (t     ,t-case)))

here is the new IF3 call:
(if3 my-3-state-variable
    &#039;(print &#039;true)
    &#039;(print &#039;unknown)
    &#039;(print &#039;false))
You can see that it looks like the standard IF syntax, the language has been extended in respect to the original syntax.

I&#039;m waiting for the mainstream languages solutions for IF3... in respect to the standard IF syntax or their originating languages.


=== Chapter 4: More language extension ===
Now, please imagine yourself extending the C# language to add the LINQ feature, how would you have performed this in C# 2.0 ??? for lispers this is strait forward (&quot;Practical Common Lisp&quot; Chapter 3).

This is the reason of LISP&#039;s longevity: user language extension.
The price for longevity: parenthesis, okay I&#039;ll pay!


=== Conclusion ===
Please, do us a favour, read at least Paul Grahm&#039;s &quot;On Lisp&quot; or Peter Seibel&#039;s &quot;Practical Common Lisp&quot; before criticising the probably most elegant language syntax and core set of features (not libraries, just the naked language).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note: In this post, I use LISP as a shorthand to &#8220;Common Lisp&#8221;</p>
<p>=== Introduction  ===<br />
I&#8217;m a software architect for real-time assembly machines, I&#8217;ve been through many many languages in my career, and for my company I choose languages by popularity : because I can find some developers on the job market.</p>
<p>=== Chapter 1: Me and LISP ===<br />
Yes, I choose the main stream languages for my company, but NO I do not like them more than LISP. In fact I personally prefer LISP over any other languages I&#8217;ve ever used professionally, and here is why, in a single word: Homoiconicity<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity</a></p>
<p>So where do I use LISP? not at work as I said, but for research projects on evolutionary algorithms. Homoiconicity is way more powerful that .NET&#8217;s Reflection for instance, because it allows both self-examination and self-modification and is so natural in LISP syntax.</p>
<p>Also LISP, by it&#8217;s syntax, allows you to extend the language in respect to the core language syntax. This allows you to extend the language in a natural manner. (please look at my programming challenge in this post).</p>
<p>Do I earn money with LISP : no.<br />
Do I think LISP is the way programming languages should have evolve : yes.<br />
Do I think LISP is like quantum mechanics : yes, because some geniuses have found a revolutionary approach but it took them 4 decades to have the rest of the world understanding it&#8217;s core power.<br />
Do I give an advantage to joob seekers who like LISP: yes, because they&#8217;re way smarter in their resulting Java or C# architecture.</p>
<p>=== Chapter 2: Programming Challenge ===<br />
I believe that language extension is very important, and that the resulting extension should respect the language syntax.</p>
<p>So, here is my challenge: Extend a mainstream language (Java, C++, C# or PHP) to have an IF working with 3 states (useful in signal processing): TRUE, UNKNOWN, FALSE<br />
But you must respect the core language syntax so that programmer don&#8217;t get confused. So with these mainstream language the 3 state IF call should look something like:<br />
if3 (my-3-state-variable) {<br />
 //my code executed the TRUE<br />
 &#8230;<br />
} unknown {<br />
 //my code executed the UNKNOWN<br />
 &#8230;<br />
} else {<br />
 //my code executed the FALSE<br />
 &#8230;<br />
}</p>
<p>=== Chapter 3: Challenge solution in LISP ===<br />
Here is a standard IF call in LISP:<br />
(if my-boolean-variable<br />
    &#8216;(print &#8216;true)<br />
    &#8216;(print &#8216;false))</p>
<p>Here is the 3 states IF definition in LISP (the solution):<br />
(defmacro if3 (test t-case nil-case ?-case)<br />
  ‘(case ,test<br />
     ((nil) ,nil-case)<br />
     (?     ,?-case)<br />
     (t     ,t-case)))</p>
<p>here is the new IF3 call:<br />
(if3 my-3-state-variable<br />
    &#8216;(print &#8216;true)<br />
    &#8216;(print &#8216;unknown)<br />
    &#8216;(print &#8216;false))<br />
You can see that it looks like the standard IF syntax, the language has been extended in respect to the original syntax.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m waiting for the mainstream languages solutions for IF3&#8230; in respect to the standard IF syntax or their originating languages.</p>
<p>=== Chapter 4: More language extension ===<br />
Now, please imagine yourself extending the C# language to add the LINQ feature, how would you have performed this in C# 2.0 ??? for lispers this is strait forward (&#8220;Practical Common Lisp&#8221; Chapter 3).</p>
<p>This is the reason of LISP&#8217;s longevity: user language extension.<br />
The price for longevity: parenthesis, okay I&#8217;ll pay!</p>
<p>=== Conclusion ===<br />
Please, do us a favour, read at least Paul Grahm&#8217;s &#8220;On Lisp&#8221; or Peter Seibel&#8217;s &#8220;Practical Common Lisp&#8221; before criticising the probably most elegant language syntax and core set of features (not libraries, just the naked language).</p>
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		<title>Comment on The myth of LISP superiority by robocat</title>
		<link>http://www.twopotscreamer.com/lisp-superiority-myth/#comment-18091</link>
		<dc:creator>robocat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twopotscreamer.com/?p=846#comment-18091</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think his *main* point is good (even if the rest is mis-informed):

&quot;If LISP is so amazing, and if LISP has first mover advantage over anything the average programmer has ever heard of, why is it so resoundingly a bit player?&quot;

That rings true to me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think his *main* point is good (even if the rest is mis-informed):</p>
<p>&#8220;If LISP is so amazing, and if LISP has first mover advantage over anything the average programmer has ever heard of, why is it so resoundingly a bit player?&#8221;</p>
<p>That rings true to me.</p>
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