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From Slashdot Developers Story | “Logan’s Run” Syndrome In Programming

Re:Obivous Answer (Score:5, Insightful)

by Angst Badger (8636) on Wednesday February 17, @01:25PM (#31173142)

Eventually people do tend to get promoted beyond programming positions.

Sometimes, though it’s obviously a minority, or managers would soon outnumber their subordinates. I’ve turned down lots of management positions. The narcissism of non-technical managers is such that they think everyone wants to be like them, so they are quite sincere in their attempts to reward good programmers with management positions. The problem is that there is next to no overlap in the skillsets, and most often, what you get is a crappy manager in exchange for a good programmer. There are exceptions, but they are definitely the exceptions, not the rule. Some will accept the promotion with the idea that they’ll run things better, but then they discover that the cluelessness of the non-technical manager they are replacing wasn’t all or even most of the problem: there’s the cluelessness of the next level of management behind it.

As it happens, I actually can do a decent job of managing people. The problem is that I’d rather flip burgers. Consequently, I’ve stuck to programming and kept my skills updated, but at 39, I’m looking at the reality of a career change in the mid-term future. I’m not terribly worried about it — I’ll have the kid through college in four more years, and after that, I can afford to live on a much, much smaller paycheck.

Should it be that way? No, of course not. But absent some kind of organized labor movement — which programmers are notoriously, irrationally averse to — it’s not going to change, as the people making the hiring and firing decisions are getting by just fine with the current system. There is then little choice but to adapt, or at least emigrate.

Re:Obivous Answer (Score:5, Interesting)

by fahrbot-bot (874524) on Wednesday February 17, @01:56PM (#31173680)

Consequently, I’ve stuck to programming and kept my skills updated, but at 39, I’m looking at the reality of a career change in the mid-term future.

I’m not sure a career change is a future reality, unless that’s what you desire. I’m 47 and still highly sought by the various teams where I work. I have a broad background as an application/system programmer *and* system administrator (Unix and Windows) which allows me to develop solutions and, possibly more importantly, debug issues that others with narrower backgrounds simply cannot do. In other words, I get the hard problems – which have to be solved.

I’ve experienced the following…. (Score:4, Interesting)

by ErichTheRed (39327) on Wednesday February 17, @02:24PM (#31174182)

(Disclaimer: I’m a systems guy, not a programmer, but a very similar truth holds for us as well when it comes to age discrimination.)

I’m only 35, and I’m starting to see this creeping in on me also. Here’s a couple of random observations I’ve actually (not anecdotally) experienced:

• Companies absolutely believe the stereotype that older workers are less productive. Usually, this is because management gets promoted out of the tech ranks, where they were used to younger workers. I’ve heard more than one boss say something like “Oh, so-and-so’s kid is sick AGAIN, what a waste of time.” The deadly spiral of “willing to work longer hours, no committments, and they can be paid less” does not help.
• A corrolary to the above…younger tech workers tend to have much less of an “out of work” life. This is why you don’t see too many older people working at video game production houses…you just can’t hold a marriage together on nonstop 90-hour weeks. If you’re single, and have nothing but a one bedroom apartment and XBox to come home to, you’re going to complain less about constant overtime and that pesky pager duty us systems guys deal with.
• After being filtered through 2 line managers, and who-knows-how-many project managers, IT executive leadership just doesn’t see the impact of less-experienced people working on projects. Messes are cleaned up at lower levels, usually by spending a buttload of money on consultants, and only show up at the senior level as “minor overages”. Had the job been done right, the higher salary paid to more experienced people would far outweigh paying experts $xxx/hr to unravel some mess put together by someone who just learned Java.
• Even worse, people at the C-level believe that all IT people are whiny nerds who can be pushed around with very little pushback. This leads to the belief that nothing they do will be questioned.

I only see a couple solutions. A concerted effort could be made to make managerment aware of the actual cost of a project vs. the salary differential. I doubt that will work. You can also become one of those consultants, and get paid loads of money to clean up messes. However, that’s not for everyone…it requires tons of hard work, business savvy and is not at all stable. Try raising a family with no health insurance and a non-guaranteed income stream, especially in a high-cost-of-living area.

I admit that I’m pretty lucky. I’ve managed to land at companies that don’t seem to mind paying a little extra for someone who really knows their stuff. The price of admission for jobs like that is the willingness to invest in yourself constantly. Taking classes or buying software/hardware/books for training, even on your own time, is the best way to keep current. That way, companies get the best of both worlds…someone who knows the latest tech, and knows enough not to implement something half-baked because they want their weekends free. :-) Unfortunately, that stereotype of the COBOL guy sitting in the corner has a little bit of truth to it, and it means we end up gettting painted with the same brush.

One other choice would require a much different mindset than there is now…accept a lower salary and make up the difference by saving and investing carefully. I’ve been doing this anyway, because I know there will come a time where companies stop paying for IT talent and I’m going to be forced to take a huge paycut. Everyone I know, young or old, spends money like their income is never going to decrease. Live within your means so you can last through the bad times that are coming with the next wave of globalization.

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